Transcription
Aderson Oliveira: I have spoken with Brian Casel about the right way to outsource content marketing and that content creation is just one side of the equation. The other one is the solution. We have discussed about the interview process he puts his clients through so his team can produce content that is specific to that business with its own unique voice. Towards the end he opened up his own outsourcing practices on his business.
Hello, hello. Aderson Oliveira here. This is another interview for the OuchSourcing Podcast, where I talk to specialist, to business owners, to professionals, to experts that know a lot about outsourcing, and what to do, and what not to do. Today, we'll be talking about content marketing in the context of outsourcing, and I have with me Brian Casel. Brian is the founder of Audience Ops, which is a content marketing service focused on providing, done for you. articles, blogging, lead magnets, and other types of content. Brian, welcome.
Brian Casel: Thanks for having me on.
Aderson: Brian, let me start with the basics here. Where are you located, and talk a little bit more about your business?
Brian: Sure. I'm here in Connecticut. We're about one hour north of New York City. I do most of my work from here in my home office in my house. Occasionally, I go out to the coffee shop and do some work from there. My family and I like to travel. Sometimes, I take the work on the road. Basically, currently, I spend most of my time running my main business, Audience Ops, which is, as you said, is a done-for-you content marketing service where we basically take over the job of writing high-quality articles for your company blog, and we develop lead magnets, and we can also handle sending out your email and newsletter in social media to promote your content. We handle that whole process for you from start to finish. I've been running this company for about two and a half years now.
In addition to that, the other side of what I do is on my personal site where I have a newsletter where I write a lot about entrepreneurship, specifically productized services. You could say Audience Ops is kind of like a productized service. I teach a course and I do some coaching around that over there. That's on my site over at casjam.com. Other little projects, I've been building this new SAS product called Ops Calendar that kind of goes along with Audience Ops where we're now just rolling out this tool where it's like a content calendar planning tool, but it also incorporates social media scheduling and analytics tracking so you can see how well your content is doing and see all that in your calendar.
Before all this, going back a few years, I worked on a business called Restaurant Engine, which was a website builder for the restaurant industry, and built that up over a couple years, and then eventually sold that business in 2015, and that was around the time that I started Audience Ops.
Aderson: Very good. In Audience Ops what you are basically doing is providing an outsourcing solution, for content writing, for content marketing. What is one of the first things that you see small business, or business in general, doing wrong when it comes to outsourcing their content initiative? What is one thing?
Brian: There are a few common things that we see. One is just really not having content assets in place whatsoever. Very early on, if you're just a brand new startup and you're kind of testing out a new idea or validating it, you don't necessarily need to have a whole content strategy in place yet. But, at some point, after you developed product market fit, and you have some customers, at that point, you want to start developing some key content assets, and we see a lot of companies who don't have these in place, and it just makes everything a little bit more difficult, because these content assets can then be used in all of your other marketing, no matter what you're doing.
What I’m talking about here are blog articles. You want to have some high-quality in-depth blog articles that really speak to the problems and pains that your product solves. They don't necessarily have to be about your product, but they should be about the problem. So, you could use those assets to attract traffic from social media and search engines, you can use it to send that content out to new email subscribers and keep them warm, especially if you're developing new articles every week. That gives you a good reason to send a new email to your audience rather than just sending emails like, "Hey, buy our product, buy your product." Instead, you can come to them and say "Hey, here's something useful, something educational that you can read, and we're going to help you in your way, and you're going to build trust with us, and you're going to keep our name top of mind because we're sending something to your email inbox".
That's just an update when companies don't really have those assets, so then they let their email list go cold and they don't hear from them in a while. They don't really have a way to build their emails because they don't have these assets to give away in exchange for email addresses. Again, you can and you should use content assets in conjunction with your other marketing initiatives. If you're running pay-per-click advertising, Facebook ads, or LinkedIn ads, or something like that, they don't really work so well, generally, to just run an ad to your product page and get people to buy. That's just going to be very, very expensive cost per click, and not many of them will convert because they don't trust you. What works much better is if you're running Facebook ads to free content and get them to opt in for free content, and then nurture them with more messages, which then leads into a purchase. These are the types of campaigns that we run for ourselves and we see the best cost per click.
Aderson: Let me ask you that Brian. What you're talking about there, is that the marketing funnel that you are talking about?
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. You definitely want to start to build out, usually, multiple marketing funnels. But, no matter what your funnel looks like at the very top, at the very surface level, before anybody has ever heard of you, they need to have some way to trust and, initially, you need to capture their attention. Their attention starts with them searching for answers to a question, or asking for advice, or researching a certain market, and if your name and your content comes up in those searches, whether they're searching in social media, or in search engines, that's where having these content assets in place and having an engine to produce them continually really helps.
I guess, just on that same question, common mistakes, one other mistake that I see very, very often is some companies understand they need these content assets, but then they go out and really go for like the cheapest available option when outsourcing or hiring a freelance writer. Agency companies going to places like Fiverr and Upwork. There are plenty of ways to hire a writer to create an article for as cheap as $5 or $10, but that's not going to do anybody any good.
Aderson: Why not?
Brian: A, you're going to lack the length and the in-depth -- you're not going to be able to get any sort of in-depth content. That person is not going to be able to research your company and get inside the minds of your potential customers to be able to then come up with really strong topics to write about, and then on that same note, they're not going to able to do the extra research and time that's required to really come up with unique, insightful educational concepts that you can get across in an article.
These days - we're recording this in 2017 - it's not like it used to be. Five or 10 years ago, you could just come up with content, stuff a bunch of keywords in it, and come up in search engines. But now, that's not really going to do you any good, because Google rewards high-quality content, but more than that, content has to be for people. People are going to need to actually learn something and get some value from it if they're ever going to give you their email address, or start a free trial, or want to come back to you. That's where you need to actually spend the additional resources to have thoroughly researched, but also like unique perspectives coming through in your content.
Aderson: Got it. So, even though our conversation is focus on outsourcing, Brian, but I want to dig deeper a little bit more into the content market side of things. There's so much content out there, and I have to tell you, there's so much quality content out there. Again, there's a sea of bad content, and there is a lake of good content out there. How do we make, or what are some of the strategies, in general, that you make good content surface to the top of this flood of content and information overload that we go through every single day?
Brian: That's a really great question. I like how you put it there: the sea and the lake. That makes a lot of sense. I think it really comes down to having a very, very clear understanding of who your target customers are and your most ideal customers are, and who are they, what do they do for a living, what kind of business are they in, what is their role within that business, what is their goal this year and in the next three to five years, what are their most challenging pain points, and problems, and frustrations, where are they coming from, what level of expertise do they already have? Once you know the answers to all these questions and you really know who you're talking to, then you can develop content that is so tailored to that particular person that when they read it, they feel like, "Oh wow, you just got inside my head and you are speaking directly to me."
Everything is so competitive these days. There are so many different companies all doing the same things, and that's kinds of a natural thing. You don't necessarily need to be the number one source of this particular content in the world, and you don't have to be the only person talking about a particular topic, but if you have a unique perspective on it, and you're offering real solutions, real insights, you can capture a segment of the market, and depending on your product, maybe you only need a hundred people, or a thousand people, not a million people to connect with your content, and to their email address, and eventually go through your funnel and buy, and do that on a repeated basis every month.
At the end of the day, once you start to do the math, you don't necessarily need to reach everybody in the world, you just need to reach a few hundred or a few thousand people, and then it becomes easier to really custom-tailor your content, and your targeting, and your messaging to reach that specific group of people.
Aderson: What I like there, Brian, is that content does not live in isolation there. You have to first come up to know who's your audience, who are you talking to, what is that persona, who are they, what are their ages? Is it more male or female, is that a mix? Get to know about this individual. I even saw someone the other day that had, actually, in their business, a picture of someone that they said, "This is our persona, and his name is Joe, and he's 50 years old." So, again, getting to know your target audience so you can tailor content. That's it; that's a real good point that you made there.
Let's say I'm convinced that content marketing is something I wanted to pursue for my business, and now I be engaging the services of a company like yours, or even your own company. Let's talk a little bit about the challenges that goes on when you are on that engagement. Now you have this client, he expects that some content to be delivered. Let's talk a little bit about your own internal processes. Of course, you don't need to reveal too much, but talk a little bit about your processes and the challenges that that relationship of a client and a provider brings to you in your business.
Brian: The client who tend to come to Audience Ops, or a service like ours, they're in the mindset of they're ready to really delegate most of the heavy-lifting when it comes to planning topics and developing content, writing, and editing, and producing, and publishing, and distributing. We handle all those pieces. But, there are plenty of companies out there who are ready and willing to do all that stuff in-house. So, that's certainly another option whether you have the writing capabilities in-house and the resources to be able to handle all those pieces, or you're comfortable managing writers yourself, and editing their work, and training them, and giving them the information that they need.
But, what we try to do with Audience Ops is we do have a process where we'll do interviews with you as the client, and we'll get a really deep understanding of your business and your customers, but then, we have processes internally, where we do our own research, we plan out topics for you, we do all the drafting, we send it to a dedicated editor. It goes through a person who then sets up and optimizes it in your WordPress blog, we send out your email newsletter in social media. We handle all those pieces for you. Of course, we're sending it you as the client every step of the way so you can review, and give us input, and give us feedback. But, ultimately, especially about the second or third month of us working together, it gets to a point where we're just kind of running an autopilot, and you're seeing this content being produced, you're getting previews of it ahead of time, but it's just getting published and pushed out automatically.
The other thing that we try to do is we assign a single writer to each accounts that it's the same person, and they get a deeper and deeper understanding of your content and your audience over time.
Aderson: Let's talk a little bit about the content creation there because one thing that strikes me is -- and, most likely, it is my naive perspective to the subject here, but how can this external entity come up with my voice there, my business voice, and how do we fine-tune to find the right tone and the right voice for that company, for that leader, for that organization? How does that work?
Brian: That's a really good question. We get it a lot. The best writers are not just technically good at crafting sentences, and word choice, and that sort of thing. The best writers are really even better researchers and better interviewers, and that's who we try to look for when we build our team here at Audience Ops. So, we start with just really talented writers and researchers to join the team, but then we build a process, especially in our first month onboarding process where we go through a series of two research calls with you, and that includes our writer and our managers who kind of act as strategists. So, then we're interviewing you. We have a series of questions that we ask about your product, and your target customers, and what it's all about, and we get a deep understanding there. We go out and do external research of our own into your competitors, and we do a keyword research and all that sort of stuff.
But then, we do ask for your input a few times throughout that first month. We're going to come up with our proposed list of topics and potential headlines. We're going to run that by you and get your input, and we'll make some adjustments there. Then, we're going to draft your first pieces of content. You're going to see those, and you can give us more input and feedback and edits on those, and as we go through that process a few times, we're just adding to our notes and our knowledge base of your product and your audience, and how to talk about it accurately, and how to understand the terminology and the language that they're using. We also ask about voice and tone. Like, do you want to be more fun or more serious and focused, and we can adjust that as well. Writers are really good at making those adjustments.
I would say that most of our clients tend to be B2B, and a lot of them are software companies, so we built our team to be really optimized for that sort of client. We do have a few clients who sell to consumers, and some do like physical products and stuff, and our team is perfectly fine at adapting to those scenarios. We tend to build our team of writers who can really excel at writing for technical and specialized audiences, especially B2B software companies.
Aderson: You just burned one question of mine, which was what is the client profile there? But, that's great you addressed that already. Let me ask you this. From my standpoint, there are two aspects to content. One is the creation phase, which is what seems to the most of what your business and what you guys are doing. But, the other one is the distribution of that content, because it does make sense just to create a nice piece of content whether it's video, it's article, if nobody is watching that, if nobody is reading that. First question is do you help on the distribution side and second question is what are some of the things that you do from the distribution point of view?
Brian: What we do, with every article that we create, we'll also set it up and publish it on your blog for you, schedule it out on a weekly basis. We'll then write a unique email newsletter message to go out to your list to say, "Hey, new article is out this week. Here's what it's about, here's the problem that it solves. Click here to go read it on our blog." We'll create and send that email to your list every week for you, and over time, after we've developed a number of articles we could pick out the best 10 or 20 articles that we've done for you and line those up in an Evergreen email campaign, so that new email subscribers who are joining our list, they can start from the beginning and get your best stuff Dripped out. So, we're going to write all those messages for you, queue them up for you in Drip, or ActiveCampaign, or MailChimp, whatever you're using.
Then social media, with every article that we do, we also write and schedule out at least 10 tweets and Facebook posts and LinkedIn posts with different titles and quotes from the articles and whatnot, and we'll schedule those out. Some during the first week that it went live, a couple more like a few weeks later so that you're just continuously having this stream of content being pushed out to your social channels. We had all those pieces for you as part of our whole process. In addition to that, a lot of our clients then take these content assets that we're creating for you, and take it a step further. So, a lot of our clients run Facebook ads going to free content that we published, and some of them do like influencer outreach.
Another thing that a lot of our clients do is they have guest article opportunities. They might go out to a couple of articles in their industry, their blog, their space, and they talk to the editors of those blogs, or those other companies, and they say, "Hey, I'd love to write a guest article for you," or maybe they were invited to write a guest article somewhere, then they'll come to us, since they're clients of Audience Ops, and say, "Hey, we just secured three guest article opportunities for next month. Can you guys write those for us?" and then we'll just write those articles, or we'll even suggest topics that they can go pitch to for guest article opportunities, and we write those articles for them. So, that's another really great way to gain exposure and links coming back to your site.
One other thing that I've been testing out recently with our own content is this thing called quuupromote.com, and it's kind of a two-sided marketplace. One side subscribes so that they can get social media content automatically fed to them, and fed to their buffer accounts, and on the Quuu Promote side, if you create content, you can submit your articles, and for 30 or 50 bucks, you can have your article then be distributed to their network of folks, and it's a really great way to grow a high volume of social media tweets, and shares, and comments, and links back. It varies by industry in terms of quality of that traffic, but I've seen pretty good results when we did it for Audience Ops content, and that's another thing that I would recommend.
Aderson: I'll check out that tool. Let me ask you a question about social media sharing like Facebook, Twitter. Does it really work or are we just throwing words in a flood of streams out there, and again, we are just doing that because everybody else does that as well? Is there a real result out of social media posts? I'm not talking about advertisement, because I think there are great strategies there, but just flooding more on the social streams. Is there really a point for that?
Brian: I would say that if it's the only thing that you're doing, just posting links, then it's not super helpful. But, if you're posting links to content and mixing it up with other links from other content, like curated articles from other places, also mixing in your own personal views, also mixing in engaging and responding to people who are responding to you, then that's a high-traffic and high-engagement channel. I know, for me, personally, my personal Twitter account does pretty well in that regard, and I know that there are some companies who have done really well with that.
It can certainly help, and I also find that it helps to reach people in different time zones, in different times of the day. We'll schedule out a tweet at like 11 a.m., and then another one at like 7 p.m., and then another one like two weeks later at 2 p.m. We try to catch different followers at different time zones that way.
Aderson: Okay, that makes sense. Let me ask you what I think might be a silly question, or it's a question that you'll say, "Hey, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about," but let me ask you this anyway. If I have someone else doing an article for me, a blog post for me, maybe a company like yours, or maybe a writer out there, who signs that piece? Whose name goes on that piece?
Brian: The way that we do it is we leave it up to you as the client. The work that we do for you, you own that, and it's going to live on your own site, on your domain. Many of our clients use their names as the byline, which is totally fine. Sometimes, they'll use like the first name of our writer just to put a name on it. We always make it look like it's coming from your company. We're not going to put like the name "Audience Ops" anywhere on the content or anything like that. But, we do recommend having someone's name to make it come from a person. Especially, when you're sending an email. We'll send an email message that says, "Hey, first name, here's two paragraphs about this article, what it's about, click here to read it. From John and the team@companyname," something like that, and just make it personalized, like it's from a person, but it's still like from your company.
Aderson: The point in there, and again, you addressed that is that I should not feel ashamed because I hired someone to write a piece of content, and now I put my name at the very bottom even though I was not the one who wrote that. I should not be ashamed of that, should I?
Brian: It definitely depends on the type of business it is and the type of brand. Let's say something like between 10% and 20% of our client base would probably be more of the side of a personal brand, like a person who is marketing themselves as an expert. Maybe they sell some coaching services, some training, and other sorts of things, and they have us ghostwrite content under their personal name. That's maybe 10% or 20%. The other 80% of our clients are just companies, software companies, service companies. They're marketing themselves as a brand name company clearly with a team in place there are. There's a founding team, there's partners, there are developers, designers, marketers, customer success people, and there are people who power their blog, and we position ourselves as one of the writers on their blog, basically.
Aderson: Perfect. Let me ask another question, which is, in a way, down and dirty like that one that I asked before. Are you fan of having dates when posting articles, posting blog posts? Do you keep dates or do you hide them?
Brian: That's a good question. Generally, like on my personal blog, I don't show the dates, and the reason for that is, really, that all the content that I produce is intended to be evergreen. Everything that I'm writing and also all the content that we do at Audience Ops for all of our clients is intended to be evergreen. What that means is it should be valuable to the reader today, it should be valuable to the reader later this year, it should be valuable to them next year. It's not time-specific. We try not to focus too much on like news events or covering the latest happenings.
Occasionally, we'll tailor some content around like it's holiday season, or different things you need to know around the New Year, but still, that can be valuable any New Year, or summer time tips. Again, that can be valuable to find this summer or next summer, that sort of stuff. Generally, I keep the dates off of it because we're going to promote it at the time that we publish the content, but then we're also going to promote it down the road through Evergreen email Drip campaigns and social media that just loops and comes back around. We want to make it feel like it's -- we're not trying to mislead people and say, "This is brand new all the time," but we don't want to turn them off and make them feel like, "This is two years old. I'm not even going to read this."
Aderson: Got it, and that's what I was trying to get at, because when you see a date there, if it's two or three years old, you assume that maybe this is no longer relevant, so we have to look from that angle as well. But, I guess if we're talking about news, then maybe it's relevant to have a time stamp there, just to keep in mind.
Brian, if you don't mind, let's switch hats here, because so far, we have been talking about things that you, as a company, provide, your services, your content marketing as your solution. You are a provider of outsourcing services. Now, let's go the other way around. Let's go to the other side of the things where it's now you are hiring people, now, as you said yourself on the top of the conversation, you work from home, you have your space there, so you have people working for you, I would assume, all over the place, and you have to hire people, you have to qualify people, you have to source writers. Talk a little bit about that side of the business and what's your process there.
Brian: Sure. Today, our team consists of -- I always lose track. I think it's around 17 people, something like that. We have a number of writers. All of our writers are based in the U.S. First of all, our team is completely remote. Everybody works from different places. We use Slack, and Trello, and Google Docs, and email, and Skype, and all the remote tools that everybody is already familiar with. The roles on our team are made up of writers, and they're all based in the U.S. We also have editors. We have a couple of dedicated editors. Every piece of writing that we do then goes to a separate editor, and they do copy-editing, and proofreading, and that sort of stuff. They are also based in the U.S. I think, today, we have something like six or seven writers, and then we have three editors. We have a number of project managers, and we just hired two more. So, now we have a total of four project managers, and they are the people who are the main point of contact for our clients, and they also interface with our writing team and the other team members. All those people that I just mentioned, they are all based around the United States in different parts of the country.
Aderson: How do you go about finding those people? You mentioned Upwork, but I would assume that you have some other strategies in finding those good people that you work with. What are some of those strategies?
Brian: I use a couple of different job boards when we're sourcing for those people. There have been a couple of writing-specific job boards which have come and gone. Some of them were active a little while ago, and now they're not anymore. One side that I kind of like is we work remotely, which is a good one. It's not just for writers, but that's for all sorts of remote positions. Authentic Jobs also had some pretty good remote positions there. But then, for writers, I get a lot of applicants from personal network and my personal audience. I'll usually mention it on my Twitter account, I'll mention it on my podcast. I get some people that way.
Sometimes, we go out and we recruit writers. We'll go and look for really well-written guest articles, or just writers who put in their stuff out there, and we'll kind of invite them into Audience Ops. We do that occasionally, and then project managers, kind of same deal for my network, and we also post on different job boards, and then when we are hiring, which happens every two or three months at this point, we have a very highly developed hiring process. We have a very long form that they have to fill out, that sends their application into a big Trello board, somebody on our team sifts through all those applications, and then does like a first interview, and then we do a test project with them, and then we do a second interview, and then we bring them on. We have a whole training process, which is different for every role.
I mentioned that we have writers, editors, project managers. They are all in the U.S., and in addition to that, we have a team manager. She's kind of in charge of like the internal team. She does a lot of the training and hiring, and kind of coaching the internal teams. She's also like a writer support person. We do these writer sessions internally where the writers kind of help each other out and give each other ideas and feedback, and then we have a group of assistants, and they're all based in the Philippines. Currently, there's three. I think we're bringing in on a fourth pretty soon. They handle a lot of the more mechanical stuff.
The writers create all the contents in Google Docs, they'll take that stuff and set it up in a blog post, optimize it, schedule it. They'll set up the email newsletter. They don't write the content for it, but they will set it up and schedule it. The social media stuff, they'll schedule that, and they do a number of other setup-related things.
That's most of the team on the service side, and then I work with a couple of software developers on our software products. They are based in Eastern Europe and I'm working with, currently, two people in that front. Then, my other projects, I have like a podcast editor, and a video editor for stuff, and things like that.
Aderson: Perfect, very good. Good to see the other side of the fence here. Brian, one of the ways that we learn as people, as business owners, as professionals is via mistakes, via problems that may happen, via what I call horror stories, and either as a service provider or as someone that hires people remotely, is there any horror story that you can share with us, and what I'm most interested is what were the learnings out of that horror story that you went through as a provider or as a client? What can you tell us?
Brian: I've certainly made my share of mistakes when it comes to hiring, and just hiring the wrong people. The one really tricky thing that I find about hiring in general - I've been doing this for several years now across different businesses - it's you get better at it. I think I've become better at the whole process of hiring and managing people, but at the same time, it's still so unpredictable. I still find, to this day, that you can have someone who is a complete rockstar in the interview process, and you won't really identify the fact that they're not a good fit until after you're already working with them. That happens; it's going to happen. People are just really good -- some people are really good at applying and going through that application interview process, but then, once you start working with them, maybe they can't meet deadlines, maybe there's personnel issues, they're just not reliable, they don't fit your process, whatever it is. Those things usually come to light pretty quickly. We've learned to kind of identify those within the first month or two and then we kind of reassess.
The vast majority of our team has been with us for over a year, some of them over two years, and they really fit in nicely, and that's helped us become better at identifying who are the types of people and the types of characteristics that we look for when we're bringing on new people. I don't have any like specific stories off the top of my head right now.
Aderson: That's okay. Again, the main point is that be mindful that you may not be able to hire the perfect person. You may have to test people, you may have to go through the hiring process and take a leap of faith, even though you may have a very strict rules and regulations, but it may still fail.
Brian: On that note, one thing that I've learned is that it's better to go a little bit faster - at least for me - to go through the hiring process a little bit faster, because number one, I've made the mistake of hiring too slowly, and we get to a point where we have too much work and we don't have enough people to deliver that work, and then we have to scramble to get people on board. There are brand new people that we're scrambling to bring on board, so they're not fully ready to take on work from day one. There's still going to be a couple of weeks of training to get them ready to start working. We want to try to stay ahead of that and know the indicators when you're going to need people like a month now, you start hiring now.
But then, on that same note of like it's so unpredictable, I used to just stress over like who should I hire, I can't decide between applicant A and applicant B, I want to do more and more interviews, I want to make sure that I'm reading everybody's application and not miss one. It's better to just do it fast. Get through the list and get a short list of like five applicants, interview them, and then just kind of go with your gut, and hire the best one. Because, the true test is once they actually start working with you, and then you can figure out if they're going to stay or not.
Aderson: Very true. Brian, we are coming towards the end here. But, before I let you plug, a little bit more, your business, and your services, and how people can reach out to you, is there anything else that we haven't discussed, we haven't touched about either content or the angle with outsourcing on what we're talking about? Is there anything else left that you'd like to mention?
Brian: No. I mean, I think we covered a lot. I think, when it comes to working with your team remotely, especially, it's all about communication. That's the other thing that no matter which of those roles that I'm hiring for, whether it's writer, manager, assistant, software developer, designer, anything, I'm always going to choose the one who's the best communicator: the person who can answer all my questions via email, talk it through, they're not leaving any open ends, they're thorough about their communication, because that will always work out long-term is to have a great communicators on the team.
Aderson: Yeah, and actually, that's very true for clientele relationship as well. As business providers, it's also true for us with our relationship with our clients and your clients as well, I'm sure. Brian, how can people reach out to you, maybe engage in your services, maybe if they have questions, maybe follow up with you? How can people reach out to you?
Brian: My company is at audienceops.com. You'll find all the information there, and then my personal site is at casjam.com. That's where my personal email newsletter is, and you can get all my writing about entrepreneurship and this sort of stuff over there. You'll find links to my podcast and everything, and I'm @CasJam on Twitter.
Aderson: I'm a big fan of the productizing podcast that you push forward, and you are just restarting that. Do you want to briefly mention that?
Brian: Sure, so that's the Productize Podcast. It's actually one of two podcasts that I do. I do another one with my friends Jordan Gal. That's called Bootstrapped Web. But, the Productize Podcast is basically just interviews with folks, similar to what you're doing here, except it's not video, and I did a season of it last year in 2016 about 16 episodes or so. This year, just started it up again, and just doing interviews with some productize serviced owners, some not. We cover a wide variety there, and I just like to have 45-minute conversations.
Aderson: Perfect. Brian, once again, thank you very much for your time, your willingness to share your knowledge, your expertise, your experience, and it's great that people would be able to, if they're interested in content marketing, help you guys can help them people quite a lot in Audience Ops. Thank you very much for your time, and we really appreciate you having here. Thank you very much. Bye.